"The continuous trend in Oz is for trainers to enter more and more dogs for races of 400m or less (now over 60%"

why do you think that is Bruce ????
remember you cant just get rid of them
they have to be utillised
its good to see more breeders/trainers are doing this

DYNA WINTER Trainer STEVEN COLLINS
is a fine example
Career 62 Starts. 31-11-10
Prizemoney
$56,310
this is a wheeler owned and bred dog
that may have been sold off early in its career (in the past)
but times change

there are only so many top shelf 500m plus dogs and
they cant run every where all the time
especially with the overall shortage of dogs at the moment

i would like to see more city clubs at least try adding a 300m race or two (not a full meeting) at least it would change the current line up and fill some vacancies
seems to be the same old dogs racing against each other at the moment how interesting is that for the public?

it would also be another opportunity for owners to race in the city
having spent good money for a dog with impeccable breeding only to find it can only run 300m
How many times do you think an owner would try for a 500m dog
and lose his money again?
not many is my guess

GAP and re homing is an important part of it and relevant
its 2019 Bruce

Ask not what the greyhound industry can do for you, but what you can do for the long term viability of the greyhound industry.

It starts with putting on the best possible race meetings, which then generate the most betting dollars, that are the lifeblood of the industry.

I agree with our learned friend Bruce, there is no place for sub 500m races on metropolitan race tracks, they are the showcases of the industry.

You do not see sub 500m races at Sandown and the Meadows.

300m scrambles and 400m races should be confined to country tracks.

On the other hand, does it answer the question - Where is the sport going to be in five years time? And how is Neds contributing to that?

I suggest there is a problem with endurance/stamina/training objectives/etc, and that a general weakening in that area will impact on all sorts of dogs, not just those competing over 700. This is fundamental to the code's fortunes.

Whether I am right or wrong needs to be established by a qualified independent panel, not the views of someone who has a particular group of dogs in his kennel.

John - the "uninformed punter" is not a punter but a gambler and therefore a highly unreliable supporter of the code. Here one day and gone the next. Moreover, they are not investing to give you a warm fuzzy feeling - they just want to make a dollar and have fun. However, the genuine punter is a regular investor but a fast disappearing one for a number of reasons. That's bad.

The big kennels may not have a problem because they can knock back any dogs which can't get 500. Waller and Cummings would be much the same. That's how the system works - competition and expertise.

I also query the claim that a dog can be a quality 300/400 sprinter. 400m maybe but not 300 for reasons already stated. In any event, if you go through the form for the Neds fields you will find relatively few that were doing much good over 300 anyway. They were just poor racers (eg win rates of 5% - 8%) - suck it up and go to plan B, not to a display at the country's major venue where you are kidding to newcomers to the game. (NB I don't blame trainers but I am critical of GRNSW for putting it on).

Separately, I have long been a supporter of better rewards for solid 5th grade provincial events over 450m/520m because that is where the guts of the industry is and where people need encouragement. At a stretch I could extend that to 400m - assuming better track designs - but never to the 300s.

The objective of any policy has to be excellence. Period, full stop.

"It starts with putting on the best possible race meetings, which then generate the most betting dollars, that are the lifeblood of the industry".

i agree but half fields due to lack of noms isnt a good look either
meadows and sandown already run wednesday and sunday meetings average dogs there
hardly the best possible

Martyn,

Yes, all those empty boxes wherever, would hardly inspire an outsider to view the industry as thriving.

For Bruce's punters (not gamblers) it is not very enticing, given the empty boxes and mediocre form of some of the runners; how many of them are just in there to make up the numbers?

Of course, as an owner/trainer I would not complain. Less competition, same prize money, keep it up;but is it fool's gold?
How long will it last, given the surge in sports betting?

Now, Friday night? What is on offer to invest my hard earned cash on?

The AFL game, Collingwood vs Geelong and/or Neds 280s mad scrambles?

Betfair tell me AFL has a lower commission, compared to NRL, which in turn is lower than the racing industry, so I will take that in to consideration.

Still, give me some decent 500m+ races to bet on at the dogs, and I probably will invest there, but Neds 280s is a no,no,no.

Bruce

"Whether I am right or wrong needs to be established by a qualified independent panel, not the views of someone who has a particular group of dogs in his kennel."

really is that the best you can come up with ?
who made you "king of the North"

Ian

im not saying neds 280s is
is a good idea
trying a full card was a bit ambitious in my opinion
but at least they are trying something

Martyn,

We are walking into a fruit salad here. Short fields are a different subject to racing over the 300s. Your inference is that more short races would fill out the Sandown and Meadows secondary meeting. No doubt, but how would that help the overall effort?

First of all, I would argue that those "provincials" in town should never have existed in the first place. They arrived courtesy of John Stephens (ex SPK Mgr and ex GRV boss) some 15 years ago for no particular reason other than he and maybe others personally wanted to do it. They started off with cut price prize money but were soon elevated to standard provincial levels. That had the immediate effect of reducing the quality of many provincial meetings while adding nothing to the overall state package. They were and are a poor option.

Secondly, Meadows (Olympic) used to run a horrible 311m race with a right angle turn just after the jump. Happily, they did not take that plot over to the new Meadows site. On the other hand, Sandown never ran short races.

Wenty was similar in some ways. NCA never ran 280m races but GBOTA did. Bulli, when a separate club, avoided 400s like the plague but as soon as GBOTA took over they returned and are now the most common trip. Grafton added a 307m trip because "trainers asked for it". Cranbourne says the same about 311m races.

The lesson is that various individuals have different ideas about how to run racing yet all the above are just clubs, not state authorities who might be expected to take a more balanced overall view. Hence my fruit salad reference.

Anyway, the shortage of noms is not a club problem but a state and national one. Everyone is in the same boat but no-one has grasped the nettle and come up with good answers. There have been small reductions in races per meeting but, even then, only because graders ended up with a blank sheet in front of them. They had no choice.

More particularly, no-one has yet come up with a good answer to the drop in breeding numbers, nor have they seriously investigated the root cause of the shortage (live baiting is not a sufficient answer). Consequently, there will be skinny fields for a good while yet.

Of course, any reduction in race numbers would scare the pants off state bosses as they get brownie points for pulling in a bit more cash than last year. We don't actually know what is ringing the cash register at the moment (but they will). Still, the last two or so years suggest that any cuts in exotic turnover has been matched by rises in Win and other bet types. The mugs have $5 to spend and they will spend it on something. Interesting! Mysteries would be one possibility.

Regardless, the old time pattern was that longer races generated more turnover than shorter ones. That may not be so valid today as the customer profile has changed so remarkably but it is relevant if we want to attract more serious punters to the game.

Meantime, you have to cut the cloth to suit.

"Meantime, you have to cut the cloth to suit".

Bruce

i did not infer sandown and meadows should fill the cards with 300m races i was replying to ian's comments

"It starts with putting on the best possible race meetings, which then generate the most betting dollars, that are the lifeblood of the industry".

i agree but half fields due to lack of noms isnt a good look either
meadows and sandown already run wednesday and sunday meetings average dogs there
hardly the best possible
no where did i say or infer to fill the card with short races

i said earlier a full card of neds 280's was a bit ambitious
i suggested 1 or 2 shorts races would be a better option it would help fill the gaps
full races and card being more attractive to customers wanting to bet

your the one who said
"in fact my view is that all 300m racing should be banned except, perhaps, at some non-TAB country meetings "
your words

and why bring up fruit salad and all that waffle about who invented the wheel
thats in the past
you have to abide by the current rules and adapt to conditions

Mick,

You may well be right but what I ask is why is this so?

We all know that total numbers are a problem today. But my point is that proportionally more dogs were running over 500 ten years ago than is the case today. There has been a fundamental change in either the breed's strength or in how trainers prepare their dogs, or maybe both.

I have no way of answering that question - I am just reporting the facts.

Over that period, we have been looking at significant changes in the breed's capability, significant changes in the customer profile and significant changes in public/government attitudes.

Hard questions are posed but that package is proving too much to handle in the present system. It is why breeding numbers have been falling over the long term, not just after live baiting. It is why you and others are left with more dogs that can't run 400m very well. It is why (corrected for inflation) rewards to owners and trainers have slipped at the same time as admin costs have risen.

Put another way, the industry is now less efficient that it used to be. Your hourly wage rate has dropped, so to speak. (So did mine, for different reasons, which is why I have quit).

Of course, like spider bites and illnesses, there will always be short course squibs and you have to cater for them some how. But the proportions have got out of whack. Worse, nobody is doing anything about it (except for degrading the product at Wentworth Park and elsewhere).

Like all things in life these days, the new generation want a quick return

20/20 Cricket, Sevens Rugby, Shorter Throroughbred Derby's etc etc

Greyhound Racing seems to be going the same way.

Sad to see that NSW, QLD & WA are becoming the homes of the Ultra-Squibs

Dead set 280m, 303, 330m, 302m - my break ins go further than that, running 19-20 secs

Sandro,

Quite so - you might also have listed the gallops 2YO races as they, too, have influenced breeding patterns. Swimming also graduated to 25m pools for no other reason than to provide more races for competitors. Then there is the quickie format in tennis - to four games only. And the square format in AFL - awful to watch but useful for training.

But you must add Vic dogs to the list, led by overwhelming 300 numbers at Cranbourne and Traralgon (when operating) as well as the 400s being dominant at all other provincial tracks.

I have some sympathy for WA as they long ago ran out of numbers - hence even the Cup meeting last week was padded out with two 380s. WA is always the canary in the coal mine as they are the first to lose out when national numbers decline - due to the continuing need for imports from the east.

Maybe it's not wrong, but it is not right either.

For those still living in the 1970's, natural speed and chase are here to stay, get used to it.

Are they starting to break dogs in there?

With the number of dogs going over the border each week they could have two to four dog shoot-outs there. Interesting addition. No bend start but theyll be flying to the first turn which is typical.