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Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 04 Nov 2020 21:05
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Mark,
We can all go pick the eyes out of it. Absolutely Tell You Why influenced the breed, but doesnt mean it was because he was superiorly faster than the breed he ventured into. Through being represented in the lesser litter mate Sand Man...he played his part in changing the breed in Ire/UK as well. Just as the likes of Which Chariot another lesser light changed the breed here in Oz as well.
Where would todays breed be without this imported blood - CLICK HERE
My whole point is all major zones of the world have equally as fast as each other racers and the entire breed needs each racing zones genetic makeup. That is what makes the breed advance and perform to its optimum level!
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 04 Nov 2020 23:52
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
Now this Group winning bitch is on face value, outside the square
CLICK HERE She is from a repeat mating to Bella Infrared
The outside the square part comes from her granddam Dreamin Ethics, a city class bitch, who was by the most unpopular sire Benny's Alarm whose damline is that of the mighty Pitstock Park who was then put to El Galo
Its worthy to note it is a repeat mating to Bella Infrared that previously produced another Group1 performer in Infrared Ethics
Both matings have produced several city class dogs
Hardly fashionable, but very effective as it turned out, in hindsight, that the dam carries the 4 out of the top 5 Australian nicks for Bella Infrared
I'm struggling to see what's outside the square in this mating.
This "OTS breeding theory" is a myth IMO. A classic case of if you want to find something bad enough you will.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19486 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 04 Nov 2020 23:53
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If you can't see it, I can't help you
Suffice to say that at the time of the first mating to Bella Infrared, he was a new sire here and could have bought his straws for $1650 and for most breeders who usually conform to following the just the top few popular sires, to use an unproven son of Kiowa Mon Manny, at the time, considering how hard the enigmatic Flying Penske line here in Australia had been blasted, would have been a complete leap of faith.
Therefore, it depends on your perspective.
At that time, it would have been outside the square to use him. A great dog but unproven and from a sire line that had its supporters here but also a lot of detractors
But now since Bella Infrared has become well proven in Australia, all the follow-the-herd breeders started clamouring to pay $10k plus for a vial and thus now using him in your pedigree via son or daughter is now very much in the square rather than outside it
And then there is the use of Benny's Alarm in the damline which I have already spoken about
Anyway, call it whatever you want to call it, Paul...thats the way I look at it
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 05 Nov 2020 00:11
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So using a lesser light or unproven sire is the criteria for breeding "outside the square"? Every pedigree has those in their lineage.
I reckon I know what I'll call it, complete BS. Lol
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19486 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 05 Nov 2020 00:28
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Whatever you reckon....if you want to call it bullshit then bullshit it is
Its too easy to easy to call somebody out and say its bullshit without offering an alternative view
I am not backing anyone else up, I just put out my view
If you don't like it, well who cares anyway
No point talking about it anymore with you...see ya
Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 05 Nov 2020 04:06
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As we know, most brood-bitches these days are a brother or sister or half brother or sister to a flying-machine or her dam is the same as mentioned above, or Grand-dam is a again the same as mentioned above.
So I thought breeding outside the square would be more likely to sires that are either (or both) less performed on the race-track (maybe due to injury) & unfashionable bred.
Here's some examples only so no offence to the owners, but they have produced in feature or city class events.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 05 Nov 2020 05:04
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It appears breeding outside the square is very hard to define. Probably because it's like chasing Unicorns, it's a figment someones imagination. ;-)
Tony Digiorgio Australia (Verified User) Posts 1008 Dogs 25 / Races 0 05 Nov 2020 07:20
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If my granddaughters say that Unicorns exist then as far as I am concerned, they exist.....
Please don't spoil if for them..... or me.
;-)
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 05 Nov 2020 07:44
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Sorry to say, but like just God, Allah, Jupiter, Zeus, Unicorns, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and Breeding Outside the Square or any other deity you cling to. They are all myths that people use to justify and define the inexplicable.
Thanks Tony for seeing the light side of this discussion. Greyhound-data.com has got way too serious and bitter since I was last here
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 05 Nov 2020 11:15
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steven martin wrote:
As we know, most brood-bitches these days are a brother or sister or half brother or sister to a flying-machine or her dam is the same as mentioned above, or Grand-dam is a again the same as mentioned above.
So I thought breeding outside the square would be more likely to sires that are either (or both) less performed on the race-track (maybe due to injury) & unfashionable bred.
Here's some examples only so no offence to the owners, but they have produced in feature or city class events.
You have to Admire Peters line Steve .. Aussie Nicky .Blue Giant .Blue Striker ...I dont think nothing comes close to it for being Outside the Square for 3 or more generations .. CLICK HERE
Michael Worth Australia (Verified User) Posts 875 Dogs 2 / Races 0 06 Nov 2020 05:07
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I would of thought breeding outside the square would of been something like my good mate Neal done back in 2006 when he bred a litter by Tims Crow? Who , Tims Crow by Lenson Lad. It produced Ferly Gain trained by Darren McDonald for part of her career as Neal was a good trainer in his own right. Another example would be the test mating I recently put up under the heading of Peoples Opinions but this is obviously nothing out of the ordinary as Ive had stuff all replies. So what is breeding outside the square. Have a great weekend. Cheers
Tony Digiorgio Australia (Verified User) Posts 1008 Dogs 25 / Races 0 06 Nov 2020 06:04
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Mick,
My interpretation of breeding outside the square is using a sire that is not sitting in the Top 10-15 on the Sire's list.
It doesn't necessarily mean they won't throw a good one. As soon as a good one appears from "no name" breeding the "experts" will tell us why it happened.......
Matt Griffiths Australia (Verified User) Posts 1954 Dogs 56 / Races 2 06 Nov 2020 06:21
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michael worth wrote:
I recently put up under the heading of Peoples Opinions but this is obviously nothing out of the ordinary as Ive had stuff all replies. So what is breeding outside the square. Have a great weekend. Cheers
Was yours the magic sprite mating with a lot of Brett Lee close up?
No one is brave enough to give their opinion on greyhound data anymore because if you have a differing opinion to someone else your opinion must be wrong so it gets shot down. And your opinion just gets deleted if it's on a diamond membership topic and isn't promoting a sire (or whatever the topic is)
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 06 Nov 2020 07:12
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Darren Leeson wrote:
Achieving similar results...
Interesting current times. Especially in Ireland we have some absolute machines sired by a 350m sire in Ballymac Best - Pestana, Ballymac Anton, Ballymac Arminta.
Then you have G1 winner Antigua Fire sired by G1 winning stayer Vulturi.
The interesting part is both Pestana and Antigua Fire have the supreme cross of Ireland Staplers Jo duplicated through Larkhill Jo.
Even Wolfe (ex Tyrur Big Mike), sired by a strong 500m dog also has the same Staplers Jo through Larkhill Jo, as Pestana and Antigua Fire.
In Australia we can see a similar thing.
WA Oaks winner Cobargo sired by stayer Burn One Down. Flipping the pedigree of Striker Light sired by sprinter KC And All, for Group race success.
In yesteryear, we had sires in Australia that fit the same pattern. Venetian Court was a stayer that topped the VIC sires list. World Acclaim won over 700 and was leading sire in NSW. Even Awesome Assassin won over 6-700m.
Then you had the likes of Brother Fox (ex Little Blade) and Acacia Park (ex Wild Port) sired by Harold Park 457m specialists. Even Rapid Journey was sired by a similar speed sire type in Amerigo Magic.
Would be good to see a wider range of sires used these days...Im sure wed see some real superstars bred just like in years gone by...
Here's the original post on the thread.
I hope he doesn't mind me speaking for him, but Darren seems to be saying we aren't using the variety of sires we once did.
I'm sure it's hugely influenced by the use of FS and AI. Let's be honest a lot of times sires were chosen because of locality. I know 25 years agoour syndicates first sire selections were easily accessible local sires.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 06 Nov 2020 07:14
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Out of the Square Unorthodox Unfashionable Unusual Uncommon
Inside the Square Orthodox Fashionable Traditional Common
Out of the Square for little used known sires I think is miss leading. Maybe Obscure or Low Profile Sires a better term
Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 06 Nov 2020 23:33
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Kevin Wright wrote:
You have to Admire Peters line Steve .. Aussie Nicky .Blue Giant .Blue Striker ...I dont think nothing comes close to it for being Outside the Square for 3 or more generations .. CLICK HERE
It certainly shoots well above the line Kev.
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 07 Nov 2020 02:09
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steven martin wrote:
Kevin Wright wrote:
You have to Admire Peters line Steve .. Aussie Nicky .Blue Giant .Blue Striker ...I dont think nothing comes close to it for being Outside the Square for 3 or more generations .. CLICK HERE
It certainly shoots well above the line Kev.
Steve
Blokes like Peter are rare as hens teeth these days .
Peter has been breeding with his Bloodline for over 30 years
He must rate as one of the best Backyard breeders in the Business . Giant and Master Giant were very fast Dogs back in the day.
Peter also trains from his back yard he rears pups and gets a couple at home every few months .. Peter only breeds a litter every couple of years and he races all of his own stock and i would love to know what his Percentage to pups Bred raced and won would be.
Michael Worth Australia (Verified User) Posts 875 Dogs 2 / Races 0 07 Nov 2020 02:59
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No Matt it was the bit chilli x princess twist. Cheers
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Nov 2020 04:03
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Matt James wrote:
michael worth wrote:
I recently put up under the heading of Peoples Opinions but this is obviously nothing out of the ordinary as Ive had stuff all replies. So what is breeding outside the square. Have a great weekend. Cheers
Was yours the magic sprite mating with a lot of Brett Lee close up?
No one is brave enough to give their opinion on greyhound data anymore because if you have a differing opinion to someone else your opinion must be wrong so it gets shot down. And your opinion just gets deleted if it's on a diamond membership topic and isn't promoting a sire (or whatever the topic is)
Edward (Ted) Howard Australia (Verified User) Posts 1195 Dogs 16 / Races 0 07 Nov 2020 09:20
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I dont know about outside the square but I do know its hard to select a sire nowadays as there are so many great dogs to choose from and some being better value or cheaper than others.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
