"Breeding outside the square" is a term that does not exist.

Naturally all breeding is about the mix of bloodlines but going back 500 generation is ridiculous.

A good brood will throw winners to a Labrador where as a good sire will not. So why all the emphasis is placed on the sire is beyond me.

In my eyes there is a big difference between being a "breeding guru" and having some knowledge of breeding.

Examples of "breeding gurus" are those who have made a good life for themselves by breeding, rearing and schooling champions consistently. Liam Dowling, Sean Dunphy, Paul Wheeler and Nick Savva fall into this category.

Every generation we will see new "Breeding Gurus" appear but at any one time there will only be a hand full of people that achieve this status. These are the ones you should be studying and asking question to or working out why they did this breeding or that breeding.

In years gone by I use to spend many hours with Bob and Amelia Little from Austral in NSW. I would tape all our conversations and ask Bob question after question as in my eyes he was a genius at training and also placing his dogs on the track that suited them best to give them the best chance of preforming at their best.

I have been very lucky to have known the people I have mentioned and have gained a lot of knowledge from them.

The other aspects you also should be focusing on is rearing, schooling and training.

Good luck to all future breeders out there and if you are new to the sport there are plenty of us old guys out there to help.

I agree with that, but I also don't. A good broodie can make an average sire look okay but a bad sire can make a good broodie look very average

It's the beauty of hindsight when a sire does or doesn't produce, but there has been some sires where the broodie doesn't particularly matter, they were just terrible

Work that out, say from a linebreeding and/or a genetic perspective, and specific bloodlines start to make sense with how they may nick imo.

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Darren anyone can find exceptions to the rule or information after the fact to show how good things turned out and explain why it turned out that way.

You do this constantly as well as changing facts to suit your argument. It is easy to hone in on a certain double cross and say "ah, that's why it turned out that way" when it fact you, me and others may be miles away from what caused the good or bad result.

Breeding is not as complicated as some make out.

There's no secret to breeding, it's there for all to see, and there are no gurus, just some that think they are.

You know where that got us.

Isn't the answer to look into pedigrees as a start to see what nicks ? That's all Darren's advocating imo.

Don't we owe it to the industry to try to do it better this time around?

P.s I have always owned my breedings, not blamed the poor brood for not producing a second champ.

Exactly Ryan, these forums are meant to be for sharing ideas.

The difference between me and you is that I do not feel the need to promote myself at every opportunity. I have bred some fast dogs and some slow dogs but have enjoyed every minute of it.

Who said I blamed my brood? So here we go you changing the facts to suit your argument.

I really don't understand your need to promote yourself at every opportunity.

The forum is here to help others and share information yes but it is not here to use it to promote yourself or your business.

Your reaction to anyone that disagrees with your views says it all.

Take a chill pill and realise breeding should be exciting and fun no matter how it turns out.

Breeding should never be about saying look at me how good am I.

Yeah you can 'upgrade' bitches by using a sire that will add positives in place of her negatives but history shows it's generally your way to the poor house. As I posted, those 'leading' breeders bred with their best bitches.

BTW I'd suggest people breeding with ordinary bitches did us more harm than anything else. It was the putting down of non-performers that did the most damage during the live baiting thing.

EDIT: Better add that the bitch you use may not have shown her true ability in races but should at least have shown it in trials.

I'd suggest people who played the nos game for that elusive one arguably did the most harm.

btw I'd prefer a sensible, no nonsense bitch to a really fast one with a slight kink to breed with.

we have straws to our lovely boy who has since passed called reckless brother. He was a fantastic (natural - no benefits added) chaser.
whilst he was the stud to one of ourfirts litters we bred - the 2 boys that we had are still with us and were awesome types - we just screwed up in the way we reared them as they decided one day to take it out on each other as puppies which affected their careers dramtically. (one ended up with a broken front leg and the other (won 3 races) but was always field shy - but could trial the house down - for eg 29.6 old gosford track, 29.6 gardens (4 years ago when the track was not as fast as now), 34.6 over 600 at Gardens 4 years ago
so we know he was REckless brother was not a group winner etc - but he won 19 out of 66 from 400 - 700 mts including city wins at sandown etc. he is the cousin of Goodesy. He had a perfect temparement - and could lead or run through a field and win. super versatile hard chaser with brains and a better racer than trialler.

If anyone has other suggestions - we are keen to learn in order to give the girls the best chance to produce the best possible result.
we will raise them ousrsleves with lessons learned from 6 years ago.

thanks in advance
val

If any of you guys have the time - I would be grateful

As you say, times have changed from the days where you breed from any old bitch just for the sake of breeding. Authorities also know it and now have requirements in place for potential broods. If things aren't in your favour from the outset you shouldn't be breeding in this day and age whether you believe it's your right or not.

Sound Lee never raced but she was faster than her Group 1 winning brother Hades Rocket when trialling. Her dam was also one of the fastest bitches in Aus at the time, winning her heat of the Adelaide Cup in BON and winning 21 of her 50 races. SL had plenty to offer to a mating and we all know the result.

A litter comes from the genes of both parents so why do we ALL have speed as our number one priority for a sire, yet some of us don't hold the dam to at least a similar standard? It beggars belief.

I'd assume you wouldn't put such a dog over a bitch ("..wld you take a fast bitch to a slow sire"), and therefore not be consistent with your criteria ? Yet your logic says there's nothing wrong with it as he was by a champion bitch.

If therefore you're not willing to do that aren't you then quantifying your best to the best theory again to suit your argument?

All breeding theories shld be logical and for the reasons stated above Best to the Best(or your application of it), isn't. jmo.

Star Of Creation has your name as owner and then breeder of her Primo Uno litter. Then Anevays litter to Made To Size has Star Creation Synd.

Just trying to gauge how much you actually know?

Why dont you grab yourself another bitch and breed something good? Or is it beyond you??