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Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 09:27
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mark william claxton wrote:
Nice cross Graham. 18.8% is ok but 25% is the ideal from what my studies over the years have showed me.
I agree Mark its just ok, Ive seen many good and bad 18.8% race dogs. What Im seeing a fair bit is the 18.8% litters seem to have even ability among siblings. Thats the only positive I see, but as always not 100%. 25% sounds a wise number for line breeding. I personally dont pay too much notice to percentage but many do. For Graham its the damline and maintaining vigor, so its Tesio principle I adhere to. Line breed for three generations max then outcross. My recent Moscow Circus acquisition is line bred 8.6% to Head Honcho
Mark William Claxton Australia (Verified User) Posts 958 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 09:48
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Yes, my studies have shown that the higher the percentage ie say 37.5%, 9 out of 10 you increase your chances of getting a real good one BUT the rest of the litter normally no good. It is as if the 1 & only good 1 in the litter gets all the ability in its DNA.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 09:51
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mark william claxton wrote:
Yes, my studies have shown that the higher the percentage ie say 37.5%, 9 out of 10 you increase your chances of getting a real good one BUT the rest of the litter normally no good. It is as if the 1 & only good 1 in the litter gets all the ability in its DNA.
Yes Right on Mark
Mark William Claxton Australia (Verified User) Posts 958 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 09:53
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And I fully agree with you on the 18.8% and alot of these litters being more even,with no real stand out/s.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 09:54
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mark william claxton wrote:
Yes, my studies have shown that the higher the percentage ie say 37.5%, 9 out of 10 you increase your chances of getting a real good one BUT the rest of the litter normally no good. It is as if the 1 & only good 1 in the litter gets all the ability in its DNA.
Mark William Claxton Australia (Verified User) Posts 958 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 10:09
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Yes Ryan, it can & does happen but predominantly with the one's with "alot" of ability to start with. Which as you know are few and far between.
Mark William Claxton Australia (Verified User) Posts 958 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 10:26
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That is the ultimate, breeding an even more superior damline than 'you' already have. Or lucky enough to purchase a pup out of a superior dam that has that 37.5% for example. Both cost big $$'s no matter which way 'you' go. At the end of the day depends on what outcome 'your' "realistically" looking to achieve. In my case a damline that contually throws handy good chasing pups. Basically, good bread & butter 'dogs'. Anything more than that be a bonus to me.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 10:27
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Those examples of mine are mainly older ones, who are some of the more modern 37.5% types that you've come across Mark ? Cheers.
Mark William Claxton Australia (Verified User) Posts 958 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 10:45
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I would have to go through my records but yes these day it doesn't happen alot, as ALOT just go to the most fashionable commercialised stud dog at the time. Must say though, I see alot outcrossing with not much speed & therefore more stamina. Ie 450m>. The big problem with this is that ALOT of the sires they breed to are 450m> dogs. So what happens is, your generally breeding stamina to stamina. Allan Pringle who bred the litter of the century ie Amerigo Man etc was "always" looking to bred stud dogs. You vary "rarely" saw him put a bitch to a 500m> dog. PAW only started to predominantly outcross because his line was saturated with 'Temlee' ie "speed". Have to work on 'your' speed before outcrossing imo.
Mark William Claxton Australia (Verified User) Posts 958 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 11:04
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Mind you, these 2 knowledgeable guy's rear their pups in "large" paddocks. So no matter how well bred if they don't get "plenty" of galloping as pups etc all the best breeding will more than,not reap the benefits of imo.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 11:49
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
Those examples of mine are mainly older ones, who are some of the more modern 37.5% types that you've come across Mark ? Cheers.
Old or Recent, all six pedigrees are Tesio principle, all are line bred to Temlee sire directly over damline, three times max. David Bale is heavy line bred to Jindara Bale with lots of outcross directly over damline
Mark William Claxton Australia (Verified User) Posts 958 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 21:45
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To prove my point about getting speed into your line first, how many stayers came out of PAW's operation prior to him outcrossing.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 12 Jun 2021 22:55
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PAW and his father before that were known for using outcrosses when they were available, as far as I know, because you had to have the dog here in person, there was no frozen semen available until the USA dogs were being used
They always supported them i.e. Rikasso Mick, Silver Ball, Curryhill Brute, Proper Streak, semi outcross and Sprinter/stayer World Acclaim, they used Temlee extensively as his sire line was also by an outcross (Tivoli Dreamer) even though he was locally bred
The main source of their stock, Dynabolt, a champion stayer herself - was by an outcross in Proper Streak
Mark William Claxton Australia (Verified User) Posts 958 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 Jun 2021 23:27
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I am more talking since PAW took over the operation. Predominantly he bred sprinters, but outcrossing the line again like his late father did he is getting more stayers again. My point is that you need to get the speed into your line before you introduce stamina.
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4497 Dogs 70 / Races 14 13 Jun 2021 00:02
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The fact is that within a Litter you can get squibs and strength fast and slow !!! There are no rules to breeding !!!
Mark William Claxton Australia (Verified User) Posts 958 Dogs 0 / Races 0 13 Jun 2021 00:19
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Like most who just go to the fashionable "commercial" sire at the time.Telling 'me' PAW doesn't follow certain rules he has for breeding & that Allan Pringle didn't have a rule to bred so many top class stud dogs?
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4497 Dogs 70 / Races 14 13 Jun 2021 00:30
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A.P.'s rule was breed Best x Best and hope for the best !!!!
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 13 Jun 2021 00:31
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mark william claxton wrote:
Yes, my studies have shown that the higher the percentage ie say 37.5%, 9 out of 10 you increase your chances of getting a real good one BUT the rest of the litter normally no good.........
Mark can we please get back to this ?
You've quoted some actual statistics here from your studies. Can you pls provide evidence to justify your statement, i.e., the litters that have worked vs the litters that didn't.
Other things you've said do make sense but I'm very interested with the above and wld really appreciate you addressing the statement you've made. Thx in advance.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 13 Jun 2021 00:31
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mark william claxton wrote:
I am more talking since PAW took over the operation. Predominantly he bred sprinters, but outcrossing the line again like his late father did he is getting more stayers again. My point is that you need to get the speed into your line before you introduce stamina.
And why was the reason he did that, not a quote but more or less his own words, he thought his stock was becoming too unsound and lacked stamina
IMHO, If there is any rule that you should to go by, is that you need to outcross to a certain balance, which can be a different for each different brood bitch you have to work with
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4497 Dogs 70 / Races 14 13 Jun 2021 00:39
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
