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Scott Jackson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1948 Dogs 4 / Races 0 07 Oct 2010 09:38
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I have no breeding success to speak of. I do believe,however,that you can take any bitch and improve generation by generation with a little luck and foresight. Maybe a LOT of luck!!!! Scott
Lance Day Australia (Verified User) Posts 864 Dogs 16 / Races 1 07 Oct 2010 23:46
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Scott Jackson wrote:
I have no breeding success to speak of. I do believe,however,that you can take any bitch and improve generation by generation with a little luck and foresight. Maybe a LOT of luck!!!! Scott
And a lot of time(years) Scott.You are lucky as you have youth on your side and maybe one day you may prove what you say. Keep at it ,you never know. This also will be a huge investment and unless you rear yourself it will cost a great deal of money to prove yourself right.
Pat Hennessy Australia (Verified User) Posts 1553 Dogs 6 / Races 6 08 Oct 2010 00:26
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Lance, I have been breeding now for close on 40yrs, and have been blessed at times with good success.
In the early days there was a lot of hit and miss because of inexperience and no data available such as the internet and very valuable input from people like Peter Rose.
I'm now firmly convinced that a proven sire is the first requirment, equally or more important is a quality dam who also has a proven damline, no guarantees but your chances are greatly improved with this formula. Personally i favour line breeding 3 x 4 or 4 x 4, in paticular if the " old breeders axiom" of returning to the sire the best blood of his dam in the above configuration.
Good luck to all who venture into breeding, sometimes its a very hard road to hoe, but the rewards can not be measured in monetary figures.
Cheers.
Scott Jackson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1948 Dogs 4 / Races 0 08 Oct 2010 01:13
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Lance,I believe that whelping and rearing your own litters is imperative to long term success. I don't have the facilities but would love to be in that position. Maybe one day
Paul Yeo Australia (Verified User) Posts 297 Dogs 0 / Races 0 08 Oct 2010 01:31
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Lance
Pleased to read your post quoting ;
'In the future you will find people using Cosmic Rumble over a Collision bitch which should produce some top racers of the futute.'
Ive just put a collision bitch Fridge Wilson to Cosmic Rumble.
Fridge has thrown wenty park winners in previous litter to Bit Chili who are still racing so i was pleased to get a push from you.
thanks paul
Lance Day Australia (Verified User) Posts 864 Dogs 16 / Races 1 08 Oct 2010 03:50
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paul yeo wrote:
Lance
Pleased to read your post quoting ;
'In the future you will find people using Cosmic Rumble over a Collision bitch which should produce some top racers of the futute.'
Ive just put a collision bitch Fridge Wilson to Cosmic Rumble.
Fridge has thrown wenty park winners in previous litter to Bit Chili who are still racing so i was pleased to get a push from you.
thanks paul
Good luck Paul. It looks good on paper. Only time will tell. CLICK HERE
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 26 Nov 2022 10:07
Michael Worth Australia (Verified User) Posts 875 Dogs 2 / Races 0 26 Nov 2022 18:03
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You still having them Dixie. I know , Fernando. Now I understand why youre so passionate. Sleep tight tonight , looks like being another wet one. GOAT Grasp Own Appendage Tonight. Get Out Another Towel. Cheers
Tony Digiorgio Australia (Verified User) Posts 1008 Dogs 25 / Races 0 26 Nov 2022 21:31
The mother is from a group of litters you wouldnt even sneeze at ? Which were strength on top off strength ! Fair to say it would have sent the average breeder broke , before they then went to the fastest sprint dog ever ( Fernando) for it to turn profitable ? Yes Fernando can produce strength runners , but theres not one racing trait about Fernando that would have implied strength in 2014 when Sammy was conceived? As apposed to Tarunza bale /Yahoo Omar ?
Please ! Its called a fast dog to a great damline and luck and persistent money
This line breeding between Allen deed over Fernando offspring will be seen again and again ! Well done , this breeding is gold !
Top combinations from all ends of the world marrying perfectly
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 27 Nov 2022 03:36
The mother is from a group of litters you wouldnt even sneeze at ? Which were strength on top off strength ! Fair to say it would have sent the average breeder broke , before they then went to the fastest sprint dog ever ( Fernando) for it to turn profitable ? Yes Fernando can produce strength runners , but theres not one racing trait about Fernando that would have implied strength in 2014 when Sammy was conceived? As apposed to Tarunza bale /Yahoo Omar ?
Please ! Its called a fast dog to a great damline and luck and persistent money
This line breeding between Allen deed over Fernando offspring will be seen again and again ! Well done , this breeding is gold !
Top combinations from all ends of the world marrying perfectly
Jarvis Bale & Chloe Allen are half brother/sister
One by Sonic Flight & one by Primo Uno
Both sires known to throw their fair share of stayers
Jarvis Bale , a top class stayer
Chloe Allen PM $57,000 good 500m bitch and placed over 600m in city
Fernando's littermates Elfen, Gazer - both 600m city winners
Ikaku & Linco both 700m city winners
Seems to be a reasonable amount of stamina in all partsd of the line
Its what the Wheeler family breeds for , they are far from average breeders
Anyway, no drama, you see what you want to see, I will see what I want to see
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1343 Dogs 154 / Races 139 27 Nov 2022 03:53
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The fact the Wheelers breed for city and Group race winners, tells you they breed for strength. What I find more interesting is the moderate city performed Sammy Allen was chosen for breeding. Shes the level they started off the great run with, but as many have mentioned in recent years they have champion bitches to breed with.
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 27 Nov 2022 04:04
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In terms of breeding strength on top of strength , Im seeing when he bred the mother Sammy allen he bred 2 litters previous with this in mind to tarunza bale and some US flop yahoo for the reasons you stated above .
They were horrible and would have sent 90 % of breeders broke
Im guessing as he looked at them in the paddocks being legless , lazy and other traits that come with stayers he thought I have the fastest dog in my kennels , use him !
Its one thing to say breed strength to strength but there is a glaringly obvious result that there are no stayers in the top 20 sires for years on end for a reason.
The only litter that sparked the damline was to the fastest sprint dog going ! Which is why everyone used him when he became available !
You can look at 3-6 generations back and pick a stayers patch in most breeds , my point is it wont be through the sire line and or the reason a breeder selects a stud . Proof ? Sammy Allens previous litters before her are the likely outcome
He used the fastest sprint dog available after a more then one failed attempt at direct strength from a sire line .
Imop people get this strength into strength fairytale wrong , its about using a speed dog that has the ability to throw back threw other previous generations to strength patches in its pedigree ! Hence why u need luck and sometimes you get it and sometimes you dont !
If it was a direct sire input that was the outcome all studs would be delivering higher then the average 10% top offspring to make it
Each to their own I agree , but I wouldnt overlook the larger portion of failures to celebrate the minute portion that succeeds and label it one thing ? Strength
Its many
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 27 Nov 2022 04:27
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I never said he breeds with stayers over stayers and that we should be doing it as well, even though he did to produce Allen Deed which he put over a Bulli Gol dCup winner by Wheres Pedro. Incidentally both Yahoo Omar & Turanza Bale were sprinters
I agree with you to the extent that you need to have dogs with high acceleration to keep the speed & chase in the lines
However, judiciously breeding to increase the stamina genes in a line is what eventually will produce more stayers or probably to be more correct, more 500m+ dogs in your lines
I am no expert but I just think you need to have balalnce in your lines and then you can choose to tip it with more speed or with more stamina
As an average breeder, I just try to get city class 500m greyhounds that may go onto 600m and with a wing a prayer to 700m
The European thoroughbred breeders have been doing this for 100's of years, they will refresh a damline that has become too dour with a speed sire. But they also breed for the generational long term which is not what the average greyhound breeder does
Nearly every stud dog is a sprinter because it seems breeders are fearful that breeding to a stayer will diminish hard chase and the all important speed to the first turn
Thats not going to change any time soon
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1343 Dogs 154 / Races 139 27 Nov 2022 05:20
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Look at Yachi Bale - apparently the Melb Cup was just a throw at the stumps on the way to the Sale Cup. Which his sire won and his grand sire won the National Distance and competed in many staying races. Though speedy enough to run 3rd in a Silver Chief! How many bred to Jarvis Bale, except the legend himself!
Awesome Assassin won over 700, Sonic Flight is a renowned source of strength. One things for sure, you would think you were a chance of breeding a strong 500+ dog with Yachi Bales pedigree.
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 27 Nov 2022 06:02
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All I read is that wherever you look in the melb cup winner is strength
True
But more importantly there is some magical line breeding thats igniting the strength you see everywhere .
I looked closer at the family previous to last nights runner to confirm this and see whats goin on , I find it interesting and like to learn
So I looked into the mother Sammy Allen , shes from a handy litter ! x Fernando bale
He also used previously tarunza bale who is regarded as a run home strong dog and threw accordingly , strong types and stayers , you could count on 3 fingers the races he lead from the boxes ! Not your lid pinging sprint type at all . And same goes for the US flop yahoo ! Saying coincidentally they are sprint dogs doesnt hide the fact that everyone knows he was regarded as being strong and throwing strong
Im pretty sure wheeler knew these traits / breeding etc and went for the direct sire strength input and so did everyone else using and wanting a Turanza bale straw .
Both litters were horrible
Again ..! after seeing these pups in the paddocks failing to chase his quad bike at a measly 30 klm an hour instead of 70 klm , and was shattered ! Whilst at the same time having the fastest lid pinging 500 mtr dog ever seen in the world in his kennel , Im pretty sure he didnt say before we go to Fernando , WAIT ! I have to pedigree check this to see if it matches for strength AGAIN ..and has a chance of producing a runner over 600 mtr ?
He went for speed , consistency and let the damline do the strength work ! The opposite in the first two litters !
Hence a stud dog with speed that has a deep strong damline will have more chance tenfold in comparison to a stud that was perceived as being strong through his running is my point !
Hence what u get in a litter with this in mind and what wheeler opted for after strength orientated litters for nothing ! He had no clue the outcome of Fernandos sire ability at that time and its that mating that gave way to last nights success .
Thats all Im guessing and evaluating from past matings in this line . Now they are line breeding to both strength and speed as the sires around at present are a gift to utilise with the blood relations around
The pure speed mating bought Sammy Allen about , not strength chasing like he did in previous litters
Im probably wrong but , just my thoughts
Ps Darren Jarvis bale was useless as sire , please , for reasons Ive said in strength sires a hundred times You could pick one up for free and buck the 4% trend he has cranking
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1343 Dogs 154 / Races 139 27 Nov 2022 07:22
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From memory Greta Bale was a real speedy bitch who just got 520m? So, itd be reasonable to suspect Jarvis Bale was used to add some strength to her - result Allen Deed, who won a Sale Cup. Something Greta Bale would never have done, mostly because of speed influence Wheres Pedro. So the right mix of speed and strength delivered Allen Deed?
Of course its magical line breeding. Paul Wheeler had already bred the likes of Jax Bale and Qwara Bale with the mix. So, no surprise to see him try it again with Allen Deed and get another one in Yachi Bale. Even with the little extra line breeding. Stand to be corrected, but think another breeder(s) had already shown the quality of the mix? So, Paul Wheeler wasnt the first one to mix the combination of Elusive Rebel and Gold Rush Bale together. But, astute to try it himself.
Correction - looks like Shima Shine Nov 17 & Jax Bale Jan 18, the first. Could only find Ritza Lenny & Jaimandy Hatty, both with the close Hallucinate / Wheres Pedro cross. And Paul Wheeler bred David Bale on the earlier dam line cross.
Nicholas Arena Australia (Verified User) Posts 233 Dogs 10 / Races 0 28 Nov 2022 05:16
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A little known fact is Paul was very confident Fernando Bale would run 600m - the only reason he didn't was because he didn't want the dog viewed as a stayer/strong 600m dog and therefore detracting from his early stud career. He could have been easily a lot more than the fastest sprinter in town.
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 28 Nov 2022 05:19
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Great story , but he didnt !
Shame the facts and stats show the opposite including sectionals !