Many great old timers never had these products around back when training was training so what did you think they used back in the day to keep a dog fit and running sometimes three times a week .What did they use
Many Natural things today do replace these Manufactured products for the Animal racing Market so please tell me Peter what products are good and bad for you because if you read everything on the bottle it says it treats these problems but in fact they stuff a dog up within months ..

You say KFS Kidney Function Solution or AKM Alkalising kidney Mixture or other Diuretic -are great but please tell me how these products BEAT NATURAL products they don't and they cannot even compare and first maybe look at the FAT the Meat and the KIBBLE YOU USE..

The thing that stuffs a young dog up is SALT SUGAR WHEAT CORN GRAINS ...PRESERVATIVES in most dry food kibbles so many of these things exist today with no control or limit of what goes into DRY FOOD KIBBLE we can only guess each dog will perform on the SAME DIET as the last dog we had and Peter it all starts well before KFS Kidney Function Solution or AKM Alkanalising kidney Mixture or other Diuretics
So many dogs today have intolerances to these products in some form or another and maybe when consider HOW MANY PRODUCTS are out there on the Market today you have to wonder why its worth the pain of learning from bad experiences and YES Pete NATURAL is always better all the way ..

First look at diet and training before we start to flush out kidneys with these flushes and most times people start their dogs early on it and by the time the dog is 3 its kidneys are shot and Peter i don't know how many dogs you have trained but you do understand EVERY DOG IN DIFFERENT so why say give this and that product when in fact the dog would probably pull up fine without anything other than a milky drink and some water and as i said try some parsley and turmeric some BI CARB in there drink and watch them piss like a HORSE every time ...No stress on the kidneys at all and as i said there is more than one way to skin a Cat but start first at each dogs different FEED requirements before we start to introduce many of these Harsh kidney tonics and solutions ..

Each dog is different ..Each Trainer is different and if you follow the same principles on each dog then you will fail ..

I was Lucky Peter i had Great Trainers to learn from early on so i have used almost every product there is Legaly to try and assist my dogs recovery ,

i still believe less is more if you want to keep the insides of a racing dog all healthy and working at 100% and the Kidneys are the main thing people still get wrong today and i offer a Natural Alternative so is that so wrong if i dont use Harsh KFS Kidney Function Solution or AKM Alkalising kidney Mixture or other Diuretic -to achieve what i feel are way better results .

Pete i am not saying what you suggest does not work but first people need to understand the requirements and fitness levels before we start on Kidney Tonics ...

PS
i lied
I do use Creatine ATP in its pure form as well PRE race ...
Many Kibbles are made from very substandard sources ..

Dogs Naturally University - Pet Food Nutrition

40% of dogs are obese

46% of dogs and 39% of cats now die of cancer

Heart, kidney and liver disease are epidemic

Like people, dogs are what they eat. Save your dog a lot of suffering, and save yourself a fortune in vet bills, by learning the truth about your dogs diet.

Here are 10 important things you may not know about what your dogs eating:

Commercial Dog Food Is Fast Food
Heavily-processed fast foods (burgers, fries, tacos, etc.) as a big diet component can cause major health problems in people.

How can fast foods be good for dogs?

Only dog food manufacturers think this nonsense makes sense. Dogs and people share roughly 75% the same genetic makeup, and we have similar nutritional needs. What were doing to our own health with processed foods, were also doing to our dogs. And its happening faster.

People Food Is Good For Dogs
Despite what youve heard from friends, vets and pet food manufacturers, wholesome people food is good for dogs.

People food is only bad for dog food makers.

The same fresh, nutritious foods people eat can offer your dog the nutrition he needs and save you a mountain of vet bills. It just takes a little education to learn the small differences between human and canine nutritional needs. (Hint: no onions, grapes or raisins. Rinse off rich spices and sauces. Go easy on carbs and avoid wheat and corn.)

Dont Presume The Food Your Vet Sells Is A Superior Product
Veterinarians, like medical doctors, learn relatively little about nutrition in school.

Much of what they do learn comes directly from pet food company vets, sales reps, articles, studies, and seminars.

If your vet hasnt studied and experimented on his or her own with raw or homemade diets, its unlikely that he or she knows bad food from good, and may be acting on outdated information or superstition. And if vets profit from selling one brand, and not another, they have a conflict of interest that may influence their opinions. (Some may even be prohibited by a manufacturer from selling more than one brand.)

The Quality Of Processed Commercial Foods Is Suspect
Dog food may legally contain 4-D meat: meat from dead, dying, diseased and disabled animals.

Add a little road kill, mill floor sweepings labeled as grain, and corn contaminated with high levels of pesticide (yes, really) and you have a recipe for ill health. The cheaper the food, the cheaper the ingredients, the worse the nutrition.

Read the labels!

)

pet-food-nutrition-workshop

Kibble Does Not Clean Teeth
Almost all dogs age three and over have dental diseases.

Most of these dogs eat kibble.

That should tell you something.

Although a small study once suggested that kibble might clean teeth better than canned food, better doesnt mean effectively. Hoping to avoid brushing our dogs teeth, we too willingly grasp at kibbles unsubstantiated health benefits. But pretending that kibble or hard treats will keep teeth clean will only lead to huge vet bills, lost teeth and much canine suffering.

Complete And Balanced Does Not Mean Optimum
Complete and balanced means that a food meets minimal theoretical health requirements for the average dog.

Food boasting that it conducted Feeding Trials often just test only the lead product in a line of foods. Trials, too, are for only a small number of dogs for a short period of time. Over time, nutrient and enzyme deficiencies are inevitable.

Of course, complete and balanced is better than not complete and balanced, but again, better does not mean good.

Feeding The Same Food Day After Day Limits Nutrition
Imagine eating corn, rancid fat and chicken wings (without meat) every meal of your life, with the same mix of cheap vitamins and minerals added

Nutritionists urge people to eat a variety of foods, both for improved nutrition and also to prevent allergies. Dogs need variety, too.

But variety can cause gastrointestinal upset in dogs, right?

In the short run, yes. Nutritionally-deprived animals have sick guts. In fact, intestinal upset when switching foods is a sign your dog needs more variety. Once good nutrition has healed a dogs digestive system, the dog can eat different foods every meal just as people do. Just switch foods gradually over several weeks while your dogs gut heals.

Kibble Is Not Better Than Canned
Whereas canned food is preserved by the process of canning, most kibble is preserved artificially. (Ever contemplate how much preservative must be required to retard spoilage of food left out all day?)

Kibble begins as a dry cooked meal whereas canned food is canned fresh. Kibble is exposed to more heat than canned (destroying nutrients). Worse yet, kibble is linked to kidney and bladder problems in cats, and to bloat, a deadly problem especially for large, broad-chested dogs. Its also dehydrating. Of course, canned isnt perfect either. Fresh is best, raw or cooked. Next best is frozen prepared food and then dehydrated and freeze dried foods, all available at better pet stores.

Some Common Foods Can Be Hazardous To Canine Health
Cooked bones and rawhide chews can cause major health problems requiring emergency surgery.

Wheat-based treats can bring on allergies.

Onions, grapes, raisins, chocolate, the article sweetener Xylitol and other common foods can be toxic for dogs and must be avoided.

Corn Kills
Most kibble is loaded with corn, a cheap filler.

Unfortunately, the corn isnt the luscious kind you and I eat.

Its feed corn (like cattle eat), or cheap feed corn remnants. Even corn meal dust counts as corn. The corn may even have been condemned for human consumption, there being no upper level of pesticide contamination for pet foods. If that werent bad enough, corn (which gives us both high fructose corn syrup and corn oil) is fattening.

Any wonder so many dogs are obese and suffer from diabetes?

Improving your dogs diet can add years to your dogs life and save you a fortune. It doesnt require a lot of work or expense. It just requires a little knowledge and the desire to give your dog the healthy body he or she deserves.

(NOTE: Read pet food labels like an expert! Get DNMs free 3-part pet food nutrition video workshop and learn how to pick a food that feeds your dog instead of just filling him.)

Humans excrete large quantities of sodium and potassium via sweat. Dogs don't sweat apart from their noses and the pads on their feet.

I have used AKM.....and Slow-K.....and Recharge.....and Vytrate.....and a bunch of other products that are supposed to be of benefit to the dogs.
Most of them do diddly squat or are even counter-productive!

It wasn't until I threw out nearly all my additives and supplements that I stopped having issues with dogs cramping or "tying up".

I no longer have any dogs with kidney or liver issues and the only time I have had a dog cramp in the last 5 years was due to a lack of fitness (my bad).

Vitamin and mineral supplementation is only of benefit if the dog is nutrient deficient.
Panting due to exercise or heat will not deplete a dogs' nutrients.....it will only result in some fluid loss and possibly some very minor dehydration. Unlike sweating (where potassium and sodium loss occurs) there is little or no loss of electrolytes.....so adding those to an already adequate diet is just overloading the kidneys and causing more harm than good.
If a dog is eating poop or grass or has diarrhoea then that is symptomatic of other issues. Severe diarrhoea is the only time a dog would lose appreciable levels of electrolytes and might benefit from a TEMPORARY dose of electrolyte replacement...

Otherwise, feed decent quality red meat with a suitable amount of fat and a basic multi-vitamin (I alternate between Stockgain and Kohnke's Own Energy Gold) and the dog should never be nutrient deficient.

Most kibbles aren't worth the bag they come in and their use should be minimised.

First you finish agreeing with me about Kibble
I have never understood why Greyhound Trainers give Agricultural Products like Vytrate
Why!!!
The bottle has Pigs!!! Goats!!!! Cattle!!! and Sheep
Surprise Surprise Surprise None of these animals race
None of these animals are swabbed
*** (Let me state at the outset I am not putting Vytrate in the swabbing category)
So why would a modern day trainer supplement products that weren't formulated for Racing Greyhounds and then complain when they return positive swabs
VYTRATE - Glucose based - Glucose is not good for athletes Greyhound Horse Human.

Sugars are provided from
Lactose - Milk
Dextrose - Wheat
Fructose - Grass /Plant
Glucose - Sugar Cane

Alas Maltodextrin - Cornstarch
Maltodextrin is high energy sugar and is provided in Sports Drinks including Winning Formula K9 Essential Salts
50% in fact of the daily dose of 10 to 15 gram is Energy
Almost 50% is Potassium Chloride with a combination of Vite E Vite C etc

I see more undercover Biochemists at Greyhound tracks with Licence tags on than in Laboratories. But on closer inspection I find these tags are Licence to train Greyhounds

Biochemists formulate the correct portions of ingredients in products that have GREYHOUNDS on the label for RACING GREYHOUNDS not Farm Animals
Then I hear trainers promote all sorts of combinations of Potions that aren't related to RACING GREYHOUNDS then complain when their Greyhound returns positive swabs
AGAIN generally (perhaps with rare exception) if you don't inject and you stay with 1 brand and not duplicate products AND you flush Kidney and Liver you are highly unlikely to return positive swabs
In my time dealing with Nutrition for Greyhounds I have met more Biochemists in disguise than successful trainers.
Trainers who purchase 1kg bags of Minerals Herbs(Toxic) B Group Vitamins (in too high doses) when they could rely on qualified Biochemists who formulate Supplements to offer 25% of the daily needs
This does assume the Trainer is looking after the other 75%
If only 50 to 60% is supplemented the Greyhound falls short
Again only as strong as the weakest link in the chain
Result Illness or Injury

Please read my reference to Glucose based products
You say you used Slow K Tablets
The daily requirement of Potassium Chloride is 2.5gram
These tablets contain .6g (600miligram) at best
That would be 4 tablets to be of any real benefit
I don't believe Usain Bolt would rely on the content /volume in a tablet for treating anything for an Athlete - The dosage is too small.
So that leaves 1 product that would be of value - AKM
Alkalising Kidney Mixture to flush the Urinary System - Acids from Muscles Toxins from blood

Likewise for a Greyhound Athlete

Dehydration
Causes & Prevention
Diagnosis and Tests
Symptoms and Signs
Treatment and Prognosis
How Dehydration Affects Dogs

Dehydration causes an abnormal reduction in the volume of circulating blood. This has a number of adverse consequences, many of which are related to imbalances in the levels of electrolytes in fluids that normally are contained inside and outside of cells (intracellular and extracellular fluids). Electrolytes are natural chemical substances which, when dissolved in water or melted, dissociate into electrically charged particles called ions. Ions can be negatively or positively charged and can conduct electrical currents. The key positively charged ions in a dogs body fluids (cations) are calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium. The primary negatively charged ions (anions) are bicarbonate, chloride and phosphate. The concentration of electrolytes is carefully regulated, because electrolytes are critical to the normal metabolic activities and functions of all cells in the body.

When a dog becomes dehydrated, the relative concentration of electrolytes in its cells, blood and other body fluids becomes imbalanced. This can affect virtually any organ or system, including the kidneys, bones, gastrointestinal tract, nerves, muscles, blood pressure, heart function and respiratory tract, among others.

Symptoms of Dehydration

The observable signs of dehydration in dogs can include one or more of the following:
Excessive skin tenting/decreased skin turgor (the skin stays stuck together for a prolonged period of time after being gently lifted and pressed between two fingers. Normal skin pliability depends in large part upon hydration status. Obesity and emaciation can alter the results of this test.)
Loose skin (loss of elasticity)
Wrinkled skin (due to dryness)
Vomiting
Diarrhea
Lack of appetite (inappetance; anorexia)
Weight loss (may be rapid in onset)
Excessive volume of urine production and output (polyuria)
Lethargy; listlessness
Weakness
Depression
Panting
Excessive drooling/salivation (ptyalism)
Tacky, dry gums and other mucous membranes
Elevated heart rate (tachycardia)
Weak pulse quality/strength
Prolonged capillary refill time (this is a simple test done by pressing on the dogs gums with a fingertip and assessing how long it takes for the spot to return to its normal pink color; the normal canine capillary refill time is less than 2 minutes.)
Sunken eyes (enophthalmos; usually bilaterally symmetrical/affecting both eyes equally)
Collapse

Dogs at Increased Risk

Small dogs have an increased risk of becoming dehydrated, because they have a high body surface area-to-volume ratio. Anything that adversely affects thirst or appetite, or that diminishes water or food intake, can predispose a dog to dehydration. For example, dogs housed outdoors in exceptionally hot weather, and dogs whose water supply is frozen in the dead of winter, commonly have decreased water intake and become dehydrated. Dogs with some systemic diseases especially those that cause vomiting, diarrhea, appetite loss or excessive urine production and output - are also predisposed to dehydration

Dog Health Center

View Health Library

Myasthenia Gravis

Weak muscles or sudden fatigue in dogs, more technically referred to as Myasthenia gravis, is a syndrome that involves skeletal muscle weakness in the absence of obvious nervous system abnormalities.

Learn more about: Myasthenia Gravis

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Dehydration causes an abnormal reduction in the volume of circulating blood. This has a number of adverse consequences, many of which are related to imbalances in the levels of electrolytes in fluids that normally are contained inside and outside of cells (intracellular and extracellular fluids). Electrolytes are natural chemical substances which, when dissolved in water or melted, dissociate into electrically charged particles called ions. Ions can be negatively or positively charged and can conduct electrical currents. The key positively charged ions in a dogs body fluids (cations) are calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium. The primary negatively charged ions (anions) are bicarbonate, chloride and phosphate. The concentration of electrolytes is carefully regulated, because electrolytes are critical to the normal metabolic activities and functions of all cells in the body.

When a dog becomes dehydrated, the relative concentration of electrolytes in its cells, blood and other body fluids becomes imbalanced. This can affect virtually any organ or system, including the kidneys, bones, gastrointestinal tract, nerves, muscles, blood pressure, heart function and respiratory tract, among others.

Symptoms of Dehydration

The observable signs of dehydration in dogs can include one or more of the following:
Excessive skin tenting/decreased skin turgor (the skin stays stuck together for a prolonged period of time after being gently lifted and pressed between two fingers. Normal skin pliability depends in large part upon hydration status. Obesity and emaciation can alter the results of this test.)
Loose skin (loss of elasticity)
Wrinkled skin (due to dryness)
Vomiting
Diarrhea
Lack of appetite (inappetance; anorexia)
Weight loss (may be rapid in onset)
Excessive volume of urine production and output (polyuria)
Lethargy; listlessness
Weakness
Depression
Panting
Excessive drooling/salivation (ptyalism)
Tacky, dry gums and other mucous membranes
Elevated heart rate (tachycardia)
Weak pulse quality/strength
Prolonged capillary refill time (this is a simple test done by pressing on the dogs gums with a fingertip and assessing how long it takes for the spot to return to its normal pink color; the normal canine capillary refill time is less than 2 minutes.)
Sunken eyes (enophthalmos; usually bilaterally symmetrical/affecting both eyes equally)
Collapse

Dogs at Increased Risk

Small dogs have an increased risk of becoming dehydrated, because they have a high body surface area-to-volume ratio. Anything that adversely affects thirst or appetite, or that diminishes water or food intake, can predispose a dog to dehydration. For example, dogs housed outdoors in exceptionally hot weather, and dogs whose water supply is frozen in the dead of winter, commonly have decreased water intake and become dehydrated. Dogs with some systemic diseases especially those that cause vomiting, diarrhea, appetite loss or excessive urine production and output - are also predisposed to dehydration.

Michael
Each litre contains
Potassium Citrate 400mg
Potassium Acetate 400mg
Sodium Acetate 200mg

AKM

Potassium Citrate 41.7g
Potassium Acetate 41.7g

Hope that Helps Karen

Here is something Pete that might interest you ...

Kidney Health in Greyhounds

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Here is a range of products that may assist you, if you have any questions please contact us.

Complete a Free Health Consultation in one simple step Autumn-Fall-Autumnal-Park.jpg
The most common problems I treat in Racing Greyhounds are Kidney problems.

Why should this be so? Is it something we feed them? Is it a weakness of the breed? Is it something we do to them in training?

The way to explain it is to understand that when they race they run mostly on adrenaline. The races are really only sprints and the dog is in "overdrive". This is to say, the dog is doing what it was designed for which is to run a fast prey animal down over a short distance. Overdrive really means that it is not simply a question of the lungs supplying oxygen to the blood which goes to the muscles to make them work, but that the adrenal glands are working overtime as well and pumping adrenaline into the system to give the extra speed.

The adrenal glands in the body are small glands mounted on the Kidneys. By repeatedly over stimulating these glands the kidneys themselves are over-stimulated and commonly produce signs of cramping either late in a race or after it is over. This is really a buildup of acid in the muscles which is simply a sign that the kidneys were not able to keep with the job of keeping the blood acid levels in balance.

The Greyhound is a "nervy" sort of a breed and the modern dog is bred to be particularly so. By 'nervy' I mean on its toes, in a constant state of alertness, excited and ready to chase. The excitement of a race and the sound of the lure all build up, and in many dogs, the adrenaline is pumping furiously long before they get to race. Don't you all long to have one of those rare ones which will sleep in the Kennel before a late race and still win!

Our first response to cramping is often to give electrolytes or diuretics, or worse still to feed these chemicals as part of a routine program even where there are no signs of kidney problems. Diuretics and electrolytes over stimulate the kidneys and they may appear to help in the early days by flushing the kidneys after a race. Each time we use them however, they weaken the kidneys further and further until they cannot do their job without them and ultimately they cannot do their job even with them. Acidosis is a condition which reflects a physical breakdown within the kidneys and the problem is pretty well advanced by the time Acidosis appears.

The earliest signs of Kidney problems are often wetting in the kennel, followed by cramping after a run especially in the back, and then followed by blood in the urine.

I prescribe Herbal Tonics which tone up and restore kidney function which is a very simple matter herbally. I also try to talk trainers out of the routine use of Electrolytes and routine flushing with Diuretics. There are other things in the modern diet and supplement program which place a strain on the Kidneys, but these two substances are the worst.

My standard Kidney Rehabilitation treatment tonic is the place I usually start whenever a Greyhound owner contacts me and expresses an interest in changing to more natural supplements.

This is a great site for the Natural diet Lovers .......

EXTERNAL LINK

Why is there 20% sodium in that formula, Peter?

Many trainers choose to use a Horse product that now also is available for Greyhounds
The ingredient is Sodium acid citrate
Potassium is the basis of Greyhounds and Human - As Horses graze they take in large amounts of salt from soil - The evidence is when they sweat the white salt excretion through sweat glands can be seen around the saddle and hind quarter.
There are Potassium Citrate based products available for Greyhounds

Sodium Acetate Anhydrous is the anhydrous, sodium salt form of acetic acid. Sodium acetate anhydrous disassociates in water to form sodium ions (Na+) and acetate ions. Sodium is the principal cation of the extracellular fluid and plays a large part in fluid and electrolyte replacement therapies.

Maybe you misunderstood the question.
I didn't ask you what Sodium Acetate is. I know what it is.
I asked you why there is 20% ... what is the reason for so much?
I'm interested to find out.

Ta.

Why do YOU think there is too much Sodium Acetate whilst there is 4 times the amount of Potassium composition.
The ratio is normal.

So i estimated that Fluid lost on a moderate day of racing for this dog to be .5 to .6 of 1 kg fluid loss over a three or so hour period in RACE KENNELS on RACE day ..

So i adjusted his weight and fluid intake to above 38kg for his last run allowing this .5 fluid loss .....

Now the dog is no super star at best he is tier 3 standard so if i can rehydrate and boost his weight back up to 38kg or 37.8 range then what i do must help not hinder and after a few hours this dog will jump around and you would not expect him to be so jumping out of skin so quick and i don't know what dogs you have trained over the years but when you get a dog pissing like a horse after a hard race and a few hours later he is jumping around then i see this and i try to work with each dog and what requirements he does need before after and during racing .

Pete like everything i have been my own teacher with most things i do in life but one thing i know about and that is dogs dying still today because of POOR advice and this is something we both are trying to help with.

I do understand what you are saying and i agree but there is more than one way to train and we all don't need to be using the same commercial products because lets face it the MARKET IS LOADED with commercial products and if you used the lot then you will learn the hard way and this way is best left alone for many people because i have seen so many people stuffing commercial crap into their diets there drinks everything they touch has to have some product in it and this is where many fall apart.

Many get dogs from farms running 20klm in large open paddocks a week on a farm and then they bring them home and throw all this stuff in there diets and then the trainer loses the plot they cannot understand why his tonsils are up or he is dull in the coat or his piss IS DARK AND SLOW TO RELEASE .or his bloods are so out of whack that it will take many months off to recoup and recover and once a racing dogs insides cook they never come back the same and some do but it takes so much time to DETOX the dogs liver Kidneys and so on that many just pass the dog on to someone else to fix or he goes into GAP ..

The VETS are the ones who have to try and fix these problems because as i said many just have no understanding just how HARSH many commercial products are ..

Potassium powder ..some bi carb ...Vit C . Fat fluids diet goes a long way when training a dog i do agree Pete ..

Michael there is a Diuretic Horse product on the market widely used by Greyhound Trainers
Its base is Sodium Acid Citrate NO Potassium
I don't know why any Greyhound Trainer would administer a product that was designed for Horses to Greyhounds
Sodium Acid Citrate is necessary for Horses
Horses graze and take in high levels of salt to their daily feed intake
Horse Trainers also place Salt Licks in the Stable to keep salt levels balanced
Greyhounds have a Potassium and Sodium balance to their Electrolyte
Greyhound Trainers purchased the Horse product so the manufacturer capitalised on the demand
Greyhounds on Kibble diets with 1% salt in the formula drink excessive water - Any Diuretic will flush the excess fluid from the system.
Lighter Greyhound - Power to weight ratio the Animal will run faster
5 litres of Uric fluid from a Horse weighs 5kg
Ask any Racehorse Trainer what happens when you take a 55kg Jockey off and put a 50kg Jockey on board.
I am told it equates to 1.5 lengths over 1800 metres
I will let you do your calculation if a Greyhound pees out 250mil uric fluid and is not carrying 300g stool in gut bowel and colon what the .5kg equates to over 500metres
This is not to mention the extra weight at Kennel weigh in
Trainers know High Protein Diets produce larger stool
When it is passed out it is called WASTE
Your money on the pavement
I would like to know how many Trainers have lost races by a Head and then ask themselves "What could I have done different to make up that margin"

Michael I apologise I have given you the ingredient per 100 litre mix
It should have read
Each litre contains
Potassium Citrate 40mg = .4%
Potassium Acetate 40mg = .4%
Sodium Acetate 20mg = .2%