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Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 21 Jul 2021 08:12
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Darren Leeson wrote:
David Brasch wrote:
He says the winning formula is an understanding of breeding and BLOODLINES, combined with a system for producing and rearing pups to the highest possible standard.
He generalizes too much and of course you can be attacked for questioning the article too much, because of who Nick Savva is, but a lot of his generalization on a sire can be debunked. And yes most will go on about always an exception to every rule. But, still I think his key point is in his quote above. One I agree wholeheartedly with...being, it will always be the right mix of bloodlines that will give you the very best chance of success!
Something Ive posted in outside / inside the square topic and most relevant to this post by David. That topic has a host of dogs bred obscurely, but most importantly containing the same mix of BLOODLINES! You can most certainly breed the same mix into a brood with an unproven obscure sire and get a fantastic result! Look at the pedigree of Gordette - sire a 3-400m dog named Ice Trucker that when crossed with an El Grand Senor brood. Ice Trucker sired a litter which won 94 races and $240,000 in prize money. Its also a proven Group 1 winning mix of Fortress / Greys Julianna / El Grand Senor!. Through a leading commercial sire!
Graeme, you really think the amount of time between a fast dog and a slow dog is inherited ?
We're only talking about a second between a really fast dog and a really slow one.
I seriously think nature wldn't deliberately differentiate by a second, I know you only said "...fast bitches increase your percentages...." but you really don't necessarily have to have a fast bitch either.
It's more likely environment, nurture and I know re fast twitch muscles play their part in a fast dog, but that can be passed down not necessarily from the mother. jmo.
There's absolutely no doubt it's inherited. Genetics explains why different dogs from the same litter, reared the same way by the same person have different ability. How does rearing explain it? All good rearing (environment, nurture, etc) does is bring out the best in what's already there.
He says the winning formula is an understanding of breeding and BLOODLINES, combined with a system for producing and rearing pups to the highest possible standard.
He generalizes too much and of course you can be attacked for questioning the article too much, because of who Nick Savva is, but a lot of his generalization on a sire can be debunked. And yes most will go on about always an exception to every rule. But, still I think his key point is in his quote above. One I agree wholeheartedly with...being, it will always be the right mix of bloodlines that will give you the very best chance of success!
Something Ive posted in outside / inside the square topic and most relevant to this post by David. That topic has a host of dogs bred obscurely, but most importantly containing the same mix of BLOODLINES! You can most certainly breed the same mix into a brood with an unproven obscure sire and get a fantastic result! Look at the pedigree of Gordette - sire a 3-400m dog named Ice Trucker that when crossed with an El Grand Senor brood. Ice Trucker sired a litter which won 94 races and $240,000 in prize money. Its also a proven Group 1 winning mix of Fortress / Greys Julianna / El Grand Senor!. Through a leading commercial sire!
Gordette's litter won most of their races over the shorts and none beyond 525m (from a quick look). If you're saying that's a success (and it is) then you have to give credit to Ice Trucker's race results as well, he did win 27 of them!
What the litter really had in its favour was soundness - they raced a whopping 612 times between them - which was no doubt helped by the outcross of their sire. Very good litter just the same but one out of the box. Yeah it can work but how many litters like that are out there?
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 22 Jul 2021 22:13
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Graeme Beasley wrote:
Darren Leeson wrote:
David Brasch wrote:
He says the winning formula is an understanding of breeding and BLOODLINES, combined with a system for producing and rearing pups to the highest possible standard.
He generalizes too much and of course you can be attacked for questioning the article too much, because of who Nick Savva is, but a lot of his generalization on a sire can be debunked. And yes most will go on about always an exception to every rule. But, still I think his key point is in his quote above. One I agree wholeheartedly with...being, it will always be the right mix of bloodlines that will give you the very best chance of success!
Something Ive posted in outside / inside the square topic and most relevant to this post by David. That topic has a host of dogs bred obscurely, but most importantly containing the same mix of BLOODLINES! You can most certainly breed the same mix into a brood with an unproven obscure sire and get a fantastic result! Look at the pedigree of Gordette - sire a 3-400m dog named Ice Trucker that when crossed with an El Grand Senor brood. Ice Trucker sired a litter which won 94 races and $240,000 in prize money. Its also a proven Group 1 winning mix of Fortress / Greys Julianna / El Grand Senor!. Through a leading commercial sire!
Gordette's litter won most of their races over the shorts and none beyond 525m (from a quick look). If you're saying that's a success (and it is) then you have to give credit to Ice Trucker's race results as well, he did win 27 of them!
What the litter really had in its favour was soundness - they raced a whopping 612 times between them - which was no doubt helped by the outcross of their sire. Very good litter just the same but one out of the box. Yeah it can work but how many litters like that are out there?
GORDETTE is a feature race winner winning the Geelong Oaks beating a Group class field and now a commercial broodbitch. Along with the litter winning 94 races and $240,000 in prize money is a sensational result from what so many on here would bag the crap out of at time of mating. But, the real key to such a great result is yes carried in the sire, but also the dam. Its all about the mix of Fortress / Greys Julianna x El Grand Senor...which you can find the exact same mix in a major Group 1 winner!
So to play it down somewhat and just give the sire all the credit and elude to it almost being a fluke...isnt right. Its insulting to the breeder! The real credit goes to the breeder who put the mating together! As the exact same mix is proven at the highest level! How many use Fernando Bale and Barcia Bale and breed giveaway litters? how many litters like that are out there?
We can all nit pick everything, but how many breeders breed class dogs and quality litters? Regardless of sires and dams? As Nick Savva eluded to...the better you know your bloodlines, the better chance you have of success!
He says the winning formula is an understanding of breeding and BLOODLINES, combined with a system for producing and rearing pups to the highest possible standard.
He generalizes too much and of course you can be attacked for questioning the article too much, because of who Nick Savva is, but a lot of his generalization on a sire can be debunked. And yes most will go on about always an exception to every rule. But, still I think his key point is in his quote above. One I agree wholeheartedly with...being, it will always be the right mix of bloodlines that will give you the very best chance of success!
Something Ive posted in outside / inside the square topic and most relevant to this post by David. That topic has a host of dogs bred obscurely, but most importantly containing the same mix of BLOODLINES! You can most certainly breed the same mix into a brood with an unproven obscure sire and get a fantastic result! Look at the pedigree of Gordette - sire a 3-400m dog named Ice Trucker that when crossed with an El Grand Senor brood. Ice Trucker sired a litter which won 94 races and $240,000 in prize money. Its also a proven Group 1 winning mix of Fortress / Greys Julianna / El Grand Senor!. Through a leading commercial sire!
Gordette's litter won most of their races over the shorts and none beyond 525m (from a quick look). If you're saying that's a success (and it is) then you have to give credit to Ice Trucker's race results as well, he did win 27 of them!
What the litter really had in its favour was soundness - they raced a whopping 612 times between them - which was no doubt helped by the outcross of their sire. Very good litter just the same but one out of the box. Yeah it can work but how many litters like that are out there?
GORDETTE is a feature race winner winning the Geelong Oaks beating a Group class field and now a commercial broodbitch. Along with the litter winning 94 races and $240,000 in prize money is a sensational result from what so many on here would bag the crap out of at time of mating. But, the real key to such a great result is yes carried in the sire, but also the dam. Its all about the mix of Fortress / Greys Julianna x El Grand Senor...which you can find the exact same mix in a major Group 1 winner!
So to play it down somewhat and just give the sire all the credit and elude to it almost being a fluke...isnt right. Its insulting to the breeder! The real credit goes to the breeder who put the mating together! As the exact same mix is proven at the highest level! How many use Fernando Bale and Barcia Bale and breed giveaway litters? how many litters like that are out there?
We can all nit pick everything, but how many breeders breed class dogs and quality litters? Regardless of sires and dams? As Nick Savva eluded to...the better you know your bloodlines, the better chance you have of success!
I never gave the sire all the credit, I stated the outcross of the sire no doubt helped with the soundness of the litter. And Ice Trucker wasn't some mutt with zero form. He may have been a 3-400m dog but he was a prolific winner just the same.
Obviously both sire and dam both contribute to the mating. I'd suggest that in the quoted litter, from a quick glance, the dam helped with a bit of stamina, which allowed a couple of them to win over 500m. However, that the litter won most of their races over the short course suggests their sire was a major factor in their racing style, given the dam won 2 of her 3 race wins (from 27 races) over 600m.
Where the so called 'pedigree experts' get it wrong is that the sire and dam don't contribute their bloodlines, they contribute their genes. If the sire and/or dam didn't inherit a gene they can't pass it on and just because that gene is somewhere back in the bloodlines it doesn't mean the current crop have it (or more correctly them, because it's a combination of genes, not just one, that gives a dog its ability).
This is where a hands on approach is best, because you can see with your own eyes the traits of your pups and dogs and it's why those people at the top stay at the top.
BTW the Geelong Oaks was run over 450m, what many would call a 'short' race.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 23 Jul 2021 07:01
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Youre nit-picking Graeme!. As a successful breeder and purchaser of Group winning / class dogs for over 20 years! bloodlines / genes...same thing! Its exactly what Nick Savva was implying when he mentioned that quote I put up above.
Bloodlines and genes are not the same , they are in entirely different fields and the later can only be pinpointed and commented on by hands on experience.,Definitely not from just going on past successes or proven crosses on paper
Genetic blood paper specialists are great at what they decipher , no doubt
Its not their fault if they never rear a litter and never see day to day habits or traits to be qualified in commenting on the whole end picture that started out as a paper cross assumption
You are correct Graeme
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 23 Jul 2021 13:59
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The self-aggrandizing and egomaniacal comments from some on this topic are absolutely breathtaking.
Youre nit-picking Graeme!. As a successful breeder and purchaser of Group winning / class dogs for over 20 years! bloodlines / genes...same thing! Its exactly what Nick Savva was implying when he mentioned that quote I put up above.
I've been involved with some pretty handy ones as well but I keep it to myself. Bloodlines and genes are NOT the same thing, as Nathan stated above. A bloodline is the whole bloodline, ie, the WHOLE of Wee Sal is in a bloodline because she appears there (the Wee Sal tail female line is a bloodline), while genes are responsible for different/separate traits, some (yes only some) of which are passed onto offspring. You can't inherit a bloodline but you can and do inherit genes, which is why dogs in a litter and from litter to litter vary so much. If you knew what you were talking about you'd know the difference!
As for 'bloodlines', there's a reason you're frothing at the mouth about Frieda Las Vegas as a potential brood and using Fernando Bale for her first litter and it has little to do with their pedigrees/bloodlines/genes. It's clearly a best to best mating, as is FLV herself, otherwise you'd have picked up one of Fernando Bale's brothers when they retired from racing and used him (as well as putting him out there for others to use if you wanted) and it would have cost you $7k less than FB's stud fee. If FB can throw like that why shouldn't they? Because they didn't have his ability is why. Breeders have known it for hundreds of years.
Didn't you even start a topic about some other dog, saying he has everything Fernando Bale has? Aren't you standing that dog at stud? Why haven't you chosen him for her first litter? Because he wasn't half the dog Fernando Bale is is why.
BTW a greyhound 5 generations along from that Wee Sal tail line may not even have ONE gene that came from her, such is the randomness of heritability.
Nitpicking...
Tony Digiorgio Australia (Verified User) Posts 1008 Dogs 25 / Races 0 23 Jul 2021 19:53
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I notice Gordette has now had 2 litters. One to My Redeemer and one to Blazin' Bomber. The first litter appear to be average and one from the second litter has one it's first race start at Maitland.
In your opinion Graeme, who would you be putting her to if she was yours?
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 23 Jul 2021 20:12
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Graeme Beasley wrote:
Darren Leeson wrote:
Youre nit-picking Graeme!. As a successful breeder and purchaser of Group winning / class dogs for over 20 years! bloodlines / genes...same thing! Its exactly what Nick Savva was implying when he mentioned that quote I put up above.
I've been involved with some pretty handy ones as well but I keep it to myself. Bloodlines and genes are NOT the same thing, as Nathan stated above. A bloodline is the whole bloodline, ie, the WHOLE of Wee Sal is in a bloodline because she appears there (the Wee Sal tail female line is a bloodline), while genes are responsible for different/separate traits, some (yes only some) of which are passed onto offspring. You can't inherit a bloodline but you can and do inherit genes, which is why dogs in a litter and from litter to litter vary so much. If you knew what you were talking about you'd know the difference!
As for 'bloodlines', there's a reason you're frothing at the mouth about Frieda Las Vegas as a potential brood and using Fernando Bale for her first litter and it has little to do with their pedigrees/bloodlines/genes. It's clearly a best to best mating, as is FLV herself, otherwise you'd have picked up one of Fernando Bale's brothers when they retired from racing and used him (as well as putting him out there for others to use if you wanted) and it would have cost you $7k less than FB's stud fee. If FB can throw like that why shouldn't they? Because they didn't have his ability is why. Breeders have known it for hundreds of years.
Didn't you even start a topic about some other dog, saying he has everything Fernando Bale has? Aren't you standing that dog at stud? Why haven't you chosen him for her first litter? Because he wasn't half the dog Fernando Bale is is why.
BTW a greyhound 5 generations along from that Wee Sal tail line may not even have ONE gene that came from her, such is the randomness of heritability.
Nitpicking...
That whole rant says it all bud, whatever you say. Unlike your involved whatever the hell that means??? Ive grabbed a truckload of money over the years and purchased, bred Group winning / class greyhounds with my hard earned money!
So you lecture me all you want about genes and bloodlines. Youre no longer nit-picking, just being straight out ridiculous. Im not going to even bother arguing the point with you. I clearly know something about breeding...genes....bloodlines which obviously carry genes.
Anyone that reads the Nick Savva interview should be focusing on that entire highlighted quote I put up. There are secrets to breeding and when you work it out you start to breed elite greyhounds. Nick Savva says as much... no more poignant quote for a breeder to grasp...
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 23 Jul 2021 20:20
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They were ludicrous statements in the first instance, doubing down on those comments smacks of arrogance and only confirms my original opinions.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 23 Jul 2021 20:48
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Sheesh, now theres the pot calling the kettle black!
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 23 Jul 2021 22:03
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Bloodlines / Genes / Analogy A pair of Rolling Dice.
One dice is Sire bloodline the other dice Dam bloodlines Numbers on the dice are genes with highest numbers represent potent dominant genes and low numbers low potency . Because you have previously rolled a double six doesnt mean you will do the same next throw.
The Wizard from Milton Keynes discovered this
Jeff Crawford Australia (Verified User) Posts 238 Dogs 12 / Races 0 23 Jul 2021 23:18
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We have only recently served 2 broodies.....
One El x Leeroy Rogue We own both Sire and Dam, so we wanted a 'homegrown' product that chases hard with great 1 turn performance and pure speed. All this in mind for 2 years time when the new track at Purga (Qld) opens.
Daisy Rumble x Fernando Bale To produce full blood to current FB x Joyce Rumble, who's first litter to race include some smart one's....
Waiting to come on season in the next couple of months include -
Kiss And Roll to Leeroy Rogue, then El Grand Senor. Eulogia to Go Wild Teddy. Fi Fi Rumble to Fernando Bale. Hazy Jane to a KC and All son.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 24 Jul 2021 00:16
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Jeff Crawford wrote:
We have only recently served 2 broodies.....
One El x Leeroy Rogue We own both Sire and Dam, so we wanted a 'homegrown' product that chases hard with great 1 turn performance and pure speed. All this in mind for 2 years time when the new track at Purga (Qld) opens.
Daisy Rumble x Fernando Bale To produce full blood to current FB x Joyce Rumble, who's first litter to race include some smart one's....
Waiting to come on season in the next couple of months include -
Kiss And Roll to Leeroy Rogue, then El Grand Senor. Eulogia to Go Wild Teddy. Fi Fi Rumble to Fernando Bale. Hazy Jane to a KC and All son.
Youre nit-picking Graeme!. As a successful breeder and purchaser of Group winning / class dogs for over 20 years! bloodlines / genes...same thing! Its exactly what Nick Savva was implying when he mentioned that quote I put up above.
I've been involved with some pretty handy ones as well but I keep it to myself. Bloodlines and genes are NOT the same thing, as Nathan stated above. A bloodline is the whole bloodline, ie, the WHOLE of Wee Sal is in a bloodline because she appears there (the Wee Sal tail female line is a bloodline), while genes are responsible for different/separate traits, some (yes only some) of which are passed onto offspring. You can't inherit a bloodline but you can and do inherit genes, which is why dogs in a litter and from litter to litter vary so much. If you knew what you were talking about you'd know the difference!
As for 'bloodlines', there's a reason you're frothing at the mouth about Frieda Las Vegas as a potential brood and using Fernando Bale for her first litter and it has little to do with their pedigrees/bloodlines/genes. It's clearly a best to best mating, as is FLV herself, otherwise you'd have picked up one of Fernando Bale's brothers when they retired from racing and used him (as well as putting him out there for others to use if you wanted) and it would have cost you $7k less than FB's stud fee. If FB can throw like that why shouldn't they? Because they didn't have his ability is why. Breeders have known it for hundreds of years.
Didn't you even start a topic about some other dog, saying he has everything Fernando Bale has? Aren't you standing that dog at stud? Why haven't you chosen him for her first litter? Because he wasn't half the dog Fernando Bale is is why.
BTW a greyhound 5 generations along from that Wee Sal tail line may not even have ONE gene that came from her, such is the randomness of heritability.
Nitpicking...
That whole rant says it all bud, whatever you say. Unlike your involved whatever the hell that means??? Ive grabbed a truckload of money over the years and purchased, bred Group winning / class greyhounds with my hard earned money!
So you lecture me all you want about genes and bloodlines. Youre no longer nit-picking, just being straight out ridiculous. Im not going to even bother arguing the point with you. I clearly know something about breeding...genes....bloodlines which obviously carry genes.
Anyone that reads the Nick Savva interview should be focusing on that entire highlighted quote I put up. There are secrets to breeding and when you work it out you start to breed elite greyhounds. Nick Savva says as much... no more poignant quote for a breeder to grasp...
Do you have questions about greyhound racing?
